Climb By VSC: Episode 24

Jay Kapoor: Hey climbers! Welcome back to Climb by VSC. I am so excited to be joined today by Catherine Boudreau, who is a Senior Sustainability reporter at Insider. Catherine, thank you so much for joining me.

Catherine Boudreau: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

JK: You have been covering sustainability, the environment, and the intersection of government food and ag and technology for many years. So maybe let's start with a little bit of the origin story: What drew you to this topic and why did this become your calling?

CB: Yeah, absolutely. So I always knew I wanted to be a reporter from a young age, but it took me a while to figure out what I wanted to write about. When I graduated from college. I got hired at this company, Bloomberg BNA, a subsidiary of Bloomberg, and I wasn't a reporter at the time. So I was looking for opportunities to jump into doing more writing and the first job that came up was a food and agricultural reporter. So first things first, I was like, Yeah, I get to be a reporter and then I actually learned over time that I really did actually have a passion for writing about food and nutrition. I'm originally from Vermont, and I've just always had an interest in where my food comes from, who grows it, you know, the health impacts, but also the environmental effects of how we produce food. So pretty quickly, I really enjoyed that beat. But then fast forward to doing that for like six or seven years, covering what was happening at the government level. Really, the government wasn't doing a lot at the intersection of food and the environment and I just really wanted to move into more environmental and sustainability reporting. And I think that was partly because I saw like under the Trump administration, the government really wasn't doing much on this. So you know, reporting about policy wasn't really doing it for me because not a lot of action was happening. Of course, that's changed dramatically under the Biden administration. But, you know, in March 2020, I believe just right at the onset of the pandemic is when I switched to more sustainability reporting at my former position at politico, and I liked that I got to cover business because a lot of the action was happening at the business sector, and I thought that they were a little bit more dynamic than what the government was up to at the time. So that's why I decided to make the switch.

JK: One of the things that we always talk about on the show is what's changed right VCs always love to ask the question why now why, why this is different. So maybe from your coverage and your research. How has the discourse really changed in the time that you've been covering sustainability broadly, or even some of the more specific topics that you've been covering?

CB: Yeah, I think, you know, I wanted to cover the climate crisis because I did feel like that was the most important issue of my time. And that's the biggest reason I moved into sustainability reporting because I thought that was a good avenue. So I can kind of speak to how that's changed. And especially like, when I was reporting on food and agriculture, I would say that the climate conversation was like, I don't wanna say nonexistent, but, you know, it wasn't really a big conversation in like the 2018 Farm Bill, for example, like there was some talk of like conservation programs, but it wasn't a big theme. And also when I went out and talked to farmers, I mean, I think that you just had to be, at least at the time I had to be kind of careful about how I talked about climate stuff because I think there was a lot of politics. There is a lot of politics wrapped up in talking about climate change. And I think if you just talk about it as like, a way to improve the land and the soil and I mean, farmers are great about talking about that. I think that's shifting, for sure. Again, I'm not on the like food and ag be still but I know other colleagues that have done reporting, and that conversation is definitely happening. I think at the farm level. There are also just a lot of food companies that are really really invested in regenerative agriculture like they want to hit their climate targets in their scope, three supply chain emissions and a big portion of that is agriculture. So I think the conversation is really big on climate and is being driven sometimes by the food industry. And then you know, you have all these startups that are trying to help farmers and food companies measure their emissions. So I think that's changed a lot. And then just in general, I think reporters are much better at covering climate as it intersects with so many different beats. So, you know, my first avenue was food and agriculture, but now I'm reporting on climate and the intersection of like, any industry, whether it's of course energy, agriculture, sometimes healthcare, sometimes finance, sometimes tech, so I think that just overall the like, the journalism is getting better. And of course, now sustainability is on the agenda and climate is on the agenda of every corporation. So there's just one to write about now, more so than in the past.

JK: It's so interesting. One of our first guests on the show was Robert Clark from AG Funder. And you know, he was telling me about the origin story of AG funder and the idea being that like, back when they started it, as you know, a newsletter and a publication like nobody was really talking about technology development and agriculture, and to hear you say, like, hey, that's actually somebody's beat. Now. It was your beat for a while. Somebody's really spending time and understanding how all these different implications are trickling down to our food, you know, supply chain and our food ecosystem. It's, I think, heartening to see because even as Americans, I don't think we really think about where our food comes from. And then you know, it's extrapolated for the things that you're talking about, like, yeah, how these different industries are contributing to the broader crisis, right? I think we're all as consumers always thinking about plastic straws and how we're cognizant of our own consumption. And I don't think we necessarily always see the bigger picture in terms of what's happening, you know, at an industry level, so it's interesting to hear you say that like yeah, it's just being talked about more and more publications are putting staff towards it.

CB: The number of reporters covering climate now in the places that are staffing up to cover this issue is incredible to see. I think it just reflects how we've shifted our perspective on how to cover something like the climate crisis.

JK: So let's talk about your beat today. And I guess, you know, how do you define it? And then what are some of the storylines that you are following in 2023, or sort of have a keen eye toward in the coming year?

CB: Yeah, so my beat is always shifting because it is a little bit of an experiment. I think the sustainability beat is very new. So when I took a position at Politico, and 2020 as a sustainability reporter, I didn't know that many of them had a similar title and again, like a lot of my beats focused on climate, so of course, there's like plenty, there's a lot of climate reporters, but sustainability in general is like extremely broad. So I would say that I've been, you know, experimenting a lot over the last seven months or so and inside or with what resonates with readers. And I can just say that, you know, Climate Solutions broadly. It's popular, I think, because people are looking for some optimism, you know, I feel like it's important to cover the doom and gloom situation, which is like yes, we're not moving fast enough to cut greenhouse gas emissions and, but at the same time like there's a lot of companies and entrepreneurs and even, you know, governments that are working on solutions. So I think that's a big part of my focus, and I kind of bucket those into the biggest emitters because, you know, finding solutions in sectors like fossil fuels, agriculture, cement, steel, like residential and commercial buildings, those are going to make like solutions in those sectors are going to make a big dent in the emissions equation. So yeah, that's a big focus. But that said, I do want to also cover some of the like, just the pure science sometimes which is like, Okay, where are we headed in terms of global warming? Like how hot is the ocean getting? You know, just like those papers that come out that keep us in reality check, essentially. But then beyond that, I think readers are also looking for advice about how they can take steps in their own life to live more sustainably. So whether that's the food you buy, or how do you reduce your plastic consumption? How do you avoid microplastic? Because it's everywhere as we're learning. How do you shop for clothes in a more sustainable way? How do you change where you live? You know, anything that I can do to connect like the climate crisis or sustainability in general to just like you every day, I think, is really compelling. So I would say those are some of the main themes of my reporting. And then of course, as I cover here and there, the geopolitics of climate so, you know, whenever world leaders are making big announcements, doing big meetings and things like that on the climate crisis, I definitely cover that too.

JK: Yeah, I want to come back to that last bit, especially in COP 27. And second, I really liked the point that you mentioned about making the climate crisis real for the reader. And I think it's almost like just human nature, right when a problem seems so insurmountable when it seems so big. Even when as a human, we have a to-do list and you're like okay, that's a really big one. Let me do the easy thing over here because it's easy to do. I tend to find that a lot when I speak with people where there is just a, I don't know there's just a level of dejection or kind of like, you know, it's out of my hands. I can't really do anything about it. I'm gonna live my life and I appreciate that. You and I think a lot of the new writers that are kind of coming on and the sustainability beat are so focused on, you know, bringing that combination of okay, there's optimism. Here's what science is saying. And here's the last bit like, why it's real for you. What makes this story compelling for you before we talked about COP 27, and some of the, you know, geopolitical aspects of it, when you are researching when you're looking into, you know, a new technology or a new trend? What sort of gets your radar going, where like, Okay, this is something I want to lean in and learn more about.

CB: Yeah, I think in terms of evaluating some of the, like, exciting innovations that are happening, I think I tend to ask, like, you know, is it commercially scalable and I'm not the expert, usually ever. I have to interview a lot of people to decipher that. So, you know, just is it going to be able to be scaled and be like, profitable or at least eventually profitable, and, you know, it's, that's something I look for a lot and again, I rely on a lot of other sources to tell me whether that's true or not. And also to like, if it's a solution, something innovative like are there regulatory tailwinds backing it, I think that always helps a new technology advance from like the lab to, you know, pre-trial to commercial stage. So I think I'm just trying to decipher like, How realistic is it? And also like, could it be a solution that applies broadly to an industry or can be adopted broadly in an industry within like, a reasonable timeframe because like, it's just true that we're kind of in a crisis mode and things are only we only have so much time before we break through some of these thresholds that scientists have said is like catastrophic global warming. So that's kind of the thing I ask when it comes to climate solutions. And I think also, I'm looking for somebody who can help tell the story in a compelling way. So you know, if they adopted a solution in their own life, and they really got a return on investment, or it just like, worked well, I did a story about how a guy in Colorado for example, like totally electrified his home, and when there was that really awful snow storm earlier this year, he was you know, moderating everything in his home about how well his like heat pump performed. Because there are a lot of, I think, misconceptions about heat pumps, for example. And that's where he ended up doing really well because it's like, here's a guy who electrified his home and it helps dispel some of the myths I think about some of the electric technology that's being talked about in terms of electrifying homes. And so yeah, that was like that did pretty well with readers because I think it's just like an example of somebody who can tell the story and tell it in a compelling way. I can help do that. And then I'll just say like, flat out I don't cover company announcements of a new sustainability goal anymore like that. I used to cover that, like, I guess, you know, three years ago now, but no longer now, if a company has some sort of goal, they want to announce like, typically, I wouldn't cover it if they made progress. That's interesting to me, and I want to know how they did it and I really love when companies are transparent about why they failed to meet a goal and how they're trying to solve that. I think that's really interesting, too.

JK: I mean, as a reader, that would be fascinating for me, right? We saw in 2020, and 2021 all these companies start coming out with ESG policies and ESG goals and being very public about them. And, you know, not to feel cynical about it, but like, I'm kind of looking at the current economic environment that we are in, and I'm kind of like how many of these folks are going to actually stick to those goals, or if they don't stick to them if they do have to amend them, how many of them are going to sort of like, be as public about lowering the goalpost when they actually have to do it, and I don't know if you've seen examples of it, but I would be very surprised if these very aggressive goals that folks have kept to about you know, net zero by 2030. If they make a lot of progress in them in the next couple of years, when they're just trying to stay afloat and you know, try not to have layoffs.

CB: No, absolutely. I think the economy is a factor. I also think that I've heard a lot from some of the entrepreneurs I've talked to and like C suite executives, and consultants, you know, the consultants that these corporations hire to help them solve these big problems and climate like there's analysis paralysis. It's like, how do you actually do it? Because I mean, you're totally disrupting business models in some cases and an entire industry. So I think there is a little bit of like, oh, we have to measure everything and set a baseline which okay, maybe true, but like you also, it's not really like rocket science. In some cases that, okay, you have to probably, you know, shift away from fossil fuels, but a lot of companies are doing they're definitely investing more in renewables, obviously, but then I mean, some of the harder challenges is like new materials that aren't so carbon intensive, or, I mean, we just don't have solutions yet for some things like yeah, steel. How do you decarbonize steel? That's a big challenge.

JK: So yeah, I mean, or they go out and buy carbon credits, right, which has always been one of my pet peeves. The number of carbon credit marketplace startups that we have been pitched since we launched our fund a couple of years ago. Seems like there's a new one every month. I'm sure you come across them as well. Is there anything innovative in that category that as you're meeting these companies or you're learning about sort of different modalities of carbon markets, like anything that stands out to you that's unique because I've been woefully surprised at the lack of innovation in that space.

CB: Yeah, I hear you. I feel like you know, covering carbon credits is a challenging one for me personally, because I do feel like there's a new headline every day like, these credits are horrible and verify them, and then of course, you know, there's the accrediting bodies that are saying look like yes, this is challenging, but you know, we've, we've protected a lot of forests through these credits, and you can't account for every like a future variable, which is true. So I just find it really challenging to cover carbon credits. And I think it's interesting that there's all this work being done to improve the integrity of them. Because really, there isn't one universal like any regulatory body or anything like that. That's really policing it. So you're kind of relying on these accrediting bodies to verify it. And yeah, and the companies are transparent about when they're using credits if they're using them to get to their net-zero goal, where the projects are like there's just a real lack of transparency across the board. So I find it extremely challenging to cover that.

JK: Yeah. And it's that's unfortunate because nature-based solutions from a cost standpoint, are still so much more viable than some of the mechanical capture stuff. I think you and I spoke about when we connected before this call, like, you know, I've been fascinated by carbon capture and storage and yet when you just look at, on a per like metric tonne basis, it's still better to just go out and plant trees. And so I've been actually surprised by, you know, the lack of transparency, the lack of a centralized body that can basically say, and you know, have the authority and maybe that's going to be on a country-by-country level. I can't imagine that we would have a national governing sort of thing, but that's kind of where the, I guess the geopolitics of covering you know, carbon credits comes into play. So maybe we'll transition there. I don't know if you have thoughts on that. But I'd love to chat about COP 27.

CB: Yeah, of course. I mean, one thing I was just going to add about you know, nature-based solutions is that you know, I think that the pledges to like plant trees and do nature-based solutions like I think there are too many corporate pledges than the land we have available, like I'm pretty sure that's actually true. And so I think that just drives home the point that, okay, yes, it's important to plant trees, protect nature, improve biodiversity, and I think carbon credits could probably help achieve some of those goals but reducing greenhouse gas emissions from industry is really important. Like that has to be the focus of decarbonization you know, like, you can't play it your way out of the climate crisis, essentially.

JK: Yeah, I like that. I mean, that's, that's, that's very fair. And I think when we start to look at the scale of some of the, you know, shipping international flights, like even fashion, right like the, the amount of contribution year on year, there's just not enough trees for us to plant so I echo exactly what you're saying there. So we've been jumping around it a little bit, but I wanted to talk about it because I know you spend quite a bit of time covering COP 27 You were there on the ground. What was that experience like and you know, are there two or three things that you sort of took away from it that have stayed with you? Over your time covering up 27?

CB: Yeah, so this was my first time covering a UN Climate Summit and it was in Sharm el Sheikh Egypt. So I think I went in knowing that I had a huge learning curve, but it was such a rewarding experience because one; I get to meet people from all over the world who I would not get to meet. So I got to interview indigenous leaders from Brazil about what it meant that there was a new President, President Lula, and how that might impact deforestation, illegal mining, and logging that had spiked under President Bolsonaro. So that was really interesting. And I got to talk to a lot of climate activists who were pretty alarmed that Africa and many countries in Africa have become potential sources of natural gas for Europe because of the war in Ukraine. So of course, a lot of climate activists were there protesting some of the deals that have happened between European nations and African nations. But that also sparks another, like controversial topic that arose that a COP, who is, you know, a lot of leaders from Africa, were saying, you know, Western nations have industrialized using fossil fuels. They have rich economies, why are we not able to do that as well? we want to bring people out of energy poverty, you did that with fossil fuel. So like, why are you going to tell us that you did the same? I think there's just that, you know, an undercurrent of inequality and climate justice. That was really really prominent with the conference being in Africa and Egypt. So I would say that it was a really, really important current that ran through the COP and I think that will play out a little bit this next year, but this cop is in Dubai COP 28, hosted by the UAE. And I think the focus there is more gonna be like, Will countries agree to phase down fossil fuels? When the host country is actually planning to invest in more fossil fuels? They're investing in renewable energy too, but the Emirates have continued to expand our oil exports. So I think that's the overarching question of this upcoming cop.

JK: Yeah, I appreciate the summary there. You know, one of the things that was really talked about before the event and I'm curious how much of a focus there was during COP this year, was this idea of like, what do we owe to each other right kind of thing like industrialized nations, the pollution that has been put into the world as a result of America and sort of other industrialized nations, is now affecting, you know, floods in Pakistan and Bangladesh and sea levels rising in Southeast Asia. Was this something that was of you know, was this made a bigger deal before the event or was it actually talked about where not to say like climate reparations, but like that there is an actual investment that needs to be made by these industrial countries in helping the countries that are actually suffering the worst effects?

CB: Absolutely. That was probably the biggest development at COP 27 where countries agreed to establish what's called a loss and damage fund and, you know, this is separate from other climate finance mechanisms. It would be a separate pot of money specifically for what you just talked about, which is like wealthier nations that are historically responsible for the most emissions would contribute, you know, X amount of funds into this loss and damage fund to help pay for the climate. The devastation that's already happened in places like Pakistan with the flooding, and in like, you know, see, like island nations. I'm thinking of Trinidad and Tobago, for example, that are dealing with rising sea levels, you know, through no fault of their own. So that was definitely a major takeaway. I think, you know, there's more in UN climate politics like things take a long time. So I would be skeptical that nations would really make a lot of progress like COP 20. I could be mistaken. But if they actually agreed on who pays what that would be? Shocking to me.

JK: Yeah. From your time there. Is there anything that you've seen or even just in your time covering sustainability and climate change? Are there lessons the US can take from what other countries are doing, whether it's on capping industrial emissions? Or just how they're thinking about, like, their cities and you know, urbanization as it relates to climate. I'm curious, who do you think is actually leading the way on this, and what we can learn from them?

CB: Well, I mean, I think that it is clear that the Biden image administration is thinking about the energy transition as an industrial policy, which I think is really important. Obviously, that's happening in China already. They're the leader in so many renewable energy technologies, and we import solar panels, etc. You know, there earlier in EVs, so I do feel like the fact that the Biden administration passed the Inflation Reduction Act and they're subsidizing not only renewable energy but like batteries, you know, making batteries and semiconductors and sourcing critical minerals that are actually put into those batteries. For our EVs and many other devices. Like that's key, that's very strategic, because right now we import. Again, a lot of our critical minerals are from China. So diversifying the sources of that is really key. So I think that making the energy transition industrial policy is a good way to go. I also just think it's really challenging to build things in the US. I just wrote this story with a colleague of mine, and we were talking to some analysts about big transit projects. Of course, you know, doing public transportation is better than everybody driving around in their cars. But it's just so hard and costly. It takes a long time to build in us whether it's because of just the layers of government involved in getting a project approved. There are lots of different opportunities for anyone to block the process or disrupt the process over a project. And I think one source I talked to put it this way like we were to go to Docker see basically when it comes to some of these, these projects because everybody can have input and it can slow things down. So I think anything that can speed up like getting renewable energy projects built or maybe some manufacturing plants or I mean that of course comes with trade-offs. There's always going to be trade-offs, but you know, that's just the fact of it like we have to expend energy to meet our climate goals.

JK: No, you're so spot on what blew my mind is I was learning about you know how European nations handle it versus again, like, one of the best things about the US is that we are 50 states one of the worst things about the US is that we are 50 states right that like the lessons from a construction project in one state does not go over to the bordering state because different policies and different local governments and just zoning and like zoning issues that we have. I was looking at Japan for example, Japan has like 26 zones, the US has like 22,000 And so it's mind-boggling that you know the amount of time that you are spending in a construction project and again, that's time that's resources that's dollars spent, and that also means that the end cost of a project whether it's as a taxpayer or as a private investor, and ends up being so so much higher. I'm spot-on with you there. I don't know if this is something that any administration can tackle like federalizing zoning and post but like, that might be the most boring answer. Sometimes it's the most useful one, you know, I agreed.

CB: I agreed. I know. I don't have the answers. I mean, I know that there was a lot of talk about Senator Joe Manchin permitting a reform bill. I'm not an expert in anything that is part of my homework. Writing about the challenge of building in the US is fascinating to me and will be so crucial as all this money gets out the door from the Inflation Reduction Act. So just something that's a trend for sure that I'm keeping an eye on Yeah, one

JK: of the things coupling the amount of government dollars coming in, he's also the amount of private dollars that are coming in and you know, it's spoken briefly ahead of time that like looking at the data, there is more billions of dollars spent in 2022 than the entire cleantech one Dotto boom from call it oh six to 2011 Whenever you want to start and stop the clock. What has surprised you in terms of maybe where the dollars are going or who's actually allocating the capital as you are covering this sort of broad shift of private dollars coming into climate sustainability?

CB: Yeah, well, I think you know, the three areas. There were some trends I wrote about recently about where the money is headed after I talked to some venture capitalists and, you know, regenerative agriculture was an obvious one to me. And I think that's just because I do have a background in food and age reporting. So I know that there's a lot of investment going into, like how to help farmers, reduce their greenhouse gas emissions, improve biodiversity, and create metrics around that. So that one was pretty obvious to me, but the other one that I like seems kind of boring, but it's just kind of really applicable to our daily life, which is, you know, how can my power provider communicate to me when the best time to use energy is so that my bill will go down? I'll be using more renewables. Like, I think that's really fascinating. And also just kind of mundane, like, you know, but it's just something really practical that homeowners could do like in their own house. It's like getting a smart panel or picking it up to your mobile phone and getting alerts about, now's the best time to use electricity or not. The demand is really high. It's expensive, like, you know, and here's a good time to use renewables. I think that's super interesting, and it just hasn't been, you know, probably widely deployed. You know, whether it's a company disrupting the utility sector or utilities themselves, I think they're all trying to figure this one out, especially as more electric vehicles come onto the grid because obviously, those are going to be using a lot of power. So you want to kind of optimize when they're charging and everything. So I thought that that was an interesting trend that didn't just automatically resonate off the bat. And then another one that I talked to investors about was commercial shipping. And that's like ripe for disruption because there's a guess the shipping companies aren't doing a lot of research and development. They're not putting in a lot of money. into that. So that means there's a lot of room for innovation.

JK: Yeah, the piece about accessibility for like, I guess what's the right word for it? Access to our own power consumption, and actually understanding that it's so fascinating mentioned that and you know, the show we know we have, we have a lot of entrepreneurs that listen, the sort of broader lesson I take from it is sometimes like simplifying and making transparent something that is already happening in the background can in and of itself be a valuable business opportunity because you know, I think about like, even, you know, Uber and what they did to taxis, like knowing exactly what a ride is going to cost. That little shift actually creates a lot of value for us as consumers. So to your point of like, yeah, what is the cost savings of a heat pump? What is the accessibility of getting more folks to put solar projects like the lack of penetration and just residential solar uses? Right? It is mind-boggling to me because the cost of a panel has come down exponentially over 10 years. But the number of people putting solar panels up on their rooftops has not increased at the same rate. And so to your point, there's probably real value for an entrepreneur or even a big business to go ahead and just make that process transparent for us. I don't think it's going to be the power companies. I think they make money in the opaque and the opaque basically. But somebody coming along and sort of stepping in the middle and saying, Hey, let me actually show you where your power is going. Could be a viable business. Absolutely. Yeah. So I guess let's talk a little bit as we sort of closeout, you know, what is something that gives you optimism about this current fight against climate change?

CB: So I'll say two things. The first is that you know, in the topic of venture capital, for example, or you know, entrepreneurs, a lot of people are leaving I think their jobs to go into the climate space. I just wrote a story about how, you know, the big tech layoffs could actually have a silver lining for climate startups, for example, because the talent pool is a lot better. And I think in talking to some employees who have already made the leap from a big tech company to a climate startup, they really dispelled maybe some myths about how you maybe have to take a pay cut, I mean, or how you have to really have a specific skill set like these climate startups are looking for. People who work in HR who work in finance, who are scientists and engineers and everything, like software engineers, or chemical engineers. So the jobs are across the board. And I think, especially younger generations, want to have careers with purpose and meaning. I think the pandemic really crystallized that for a lot of people like how can I if I'm going to spend, you know, 40 to 60 hours a week doing something like maybe I should, there could be a higher purpose associated with it. So I think that gives me hope. And then, I think also just this report from the International Energy Agency, which said that $1.4 trillion was poured into clean energy projects in 2022. So that's like solar farms and batteries, electric vehicle charging stations, that is more than ever before, and it's more than what poured into new oil and gas projects. So I mean, even though we are still not moving fast enough to fade away from fossil fuels like I thought that that was very encouraging.

JK: Yeah, and I'll piggyback off of that, I think the to add on to the $1.4 trillion going in and even the 28 billion in venture capital going in, I think this year, especially it feels like we've shifted from the idea of climate investing being impact investing, and impact investing always carries this like sort of, oh, we're gonna lose money on it, but Well, everybody feels good to actually being like, Oh, this is a wealth generation opportunity for some entrepreneur, this is a, you know, the equity value of these startups is actually going to mean something to these, you know, 1000s of employees that are coming on and working in climate. And so to me, I think it's like, that mindset shift is going to drive the best talent to come work in the climate, that's gonna drive more investors. And ideally, it's going to drive, you know, really smart founders that could be doing anything with their time to come and work on this problem. So you know, that capital, I think, turns into a lot, a lot of different things over time. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, Catherine, I really enjoyed this conversation. I think my two biggest takeaways on the work that you're doing is one, there are so many folks that are now kind of having an eye towards climate and sustainability. You've been driving, this beat for a long time, but I'm glad to see that there are even more writers writing about this. And especially on the geopolitical side and sort of the global side. You know, I would, I'm going to keep up with your reporting and reading about how the US is trying to attain some energy independence. But then also understanding that as industrialized nations there is the sensitivity with which we have to, to sort of look at our role in the world and sort of what we're able to tell nations that are in the industrialization process now in terms of how they're able to, you know, Cap emissions in industrials, that's something I think interesting for all of us to think about, especially those of us that are listening here in the US so I thank you for your time and your perspectives today, Catherine and really excited that we got to have you on Climb by VSC.

CB: Thank you for having me. This was a great conversation. I appreciate it.